Deep Tech & The DoD's Venture Capital Programs (Podcast Transcript)

[00:06] Richard C. Howard: Well, hey, everyone. Thanks for tuning in this week. This is DoD Contract Academy Podcast, and I'm here with Sjueesh of Konami Software. Sjueesh, how are you today?

[00:17] Sjueesh Krishnan: I'm great, Richard. How are you? Good.

[00:20] Richard C. Howard: And so I haven't had multiple interactions with you here. We just had a quick conversation before we got started, but there were some things about your business which caught my eye, and we ended up reaching out to you to talk a little bit about what you're doing with the DoD. I think you're doing some fascinating things and maybe we should get started with a little bit of your background. So who are you and maybe how did you get to the point where Kinnami was created?

[00:50] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, sounds great. So, a little bit of background myself. I'm Sjueesh Krishnan. I'm currently CEO of Kinnami. I come to Kinnami with varied experience in business and engineering. I'm an engineer by training, mechanical engineer. So back in the day, I helped design some parts that went on the Airbus A 320. So I guess that's my claim to flame from a product perspective. Have done some work on the Navy side, looking at simulations and how to create hulls of submarines and tankers to evade detection. Okay, so I came from the engineering side, but have eventually sort of found myself on the business side. And what I really love doing is starting businesses, growing businesses, working in that whole entrepreneurial side of life. I've done that a few times. So, prior to joining Kinnami, I co founded and ran another data management company based out of Baltimore. So it's something that I founded and ran for about seven years. It's still an ongoing, sort of profitable company, but I moved on and wanted to do something different after seven years. And so I had been looking around. The whole space around data interested me quite a bit, just given how much we're reliant on data and the fact that data is growing so much and we need better ways to manage that data. So I was looking in the data space for what kinds of concepts or ideas or interesting startups might exist in that space. As part of that, I did look at regular jobs. So I interviewed at places like Amazon and others just as I looked at the broader data space, but kept getting drawn back to the startup world right, of being able to sort of create something. And in that process, I came across Kinnami. So Kinnami at that time was basically two tech founders who had an interesting idea of being able to look at this problem of managing data and the volumes of data that are growing. And we're looking at sort of interesting ways to address that problem. And as I met the founders and I spoke to them, one, I really like the people. I think 90% of success of a startup is based on the people. Sure. The first thing that really caught my eye was the main technical founder is somebody that I got along really well with. And I think even if this idea fails, there were ten other things that we could do together. Sure. And then the idea itself, I felt like was at the right time. So we have all of this data that's growing at what we call the edge. So in the DoD, we call it tactical edge, but in the commercial world, it's just the edge. Right. So it's LOT, it's sensors, it's drones, so there's so much information growing in all these places. Without the right tools to sort of effectively manage all of this data, the founders had this really cool idea to help try and solve that problem. So that's really what attracted me to Kinnami. So I joined Kinnami in 2018. So I came on as CEO and let the tech guys sort of focus on product while I focus on market. And since then, we've continued to grow and build a business, and here we are.

[04:28] Richard C. Howard: Great. So with Kinnami, I'm assuming you have a pretty strong commercial footprint as well as I can see what you're doing here in the federal government. Is that fair to say or would.

[04:41] Sjueesh Krishnan: You say your focus is yeah, absolutely. We're very much a dual use company. In fact, we had not even considered the DoD or the government market because all of our prior experience has been on the commercial side. So we really sort of came up with this idea and we're thinking about sort of go to market from purely a commercial perspective. But I think in the last few years, what the Air Force in particular has done with opening up the pathways and making it a bit more friendlier from a small business perspective really attracted us. Right. And how we got involved with the DoD was just pure happenstance, right. So we happened to be looking around online and found a posting by Afworks right. Saying that there's this whole phase one civil process. It's a really simple process, three months effort, go find a customer. So we thought, this is low risk, we should try it. Right? And that's essentially how we got into the ecosystem. So I think programs like Africa have been extremely valuable, as we are commercially focused company have also said, hey, there actually might be real opportunities that we can sort of go after in the defense space as well.

[05:53] Richard C. Howard: Yes. No, absolutely. It's funny because this is becoming a theme. A lot of the people that I have on the show is not just getting into federal contracting or defense contracting through the SBIR program, but Afworks in particular has been an enabler, I guess you could say, of a lot of the small businesses. And it's interesting what they've been able to do. And are you familiar with HTX Labs at all?

[06:19] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, I am.

[06:20] Richard C. Howard: So HTX. I had Scott on from HTX labs.

[06:23] Sjueesh Krishnan: They're in Austin, right? Close to. Yeah.

[06:25] Richard C. Howard: Okay, fantastic. Yeah. So they were on recently, and if you've listened to the podcast episode, you may have listened to some of the other people that have gone through Afworks. Brian stream, I would think went through afworks as well. But yeah. So it's interesting how this is starting to become a theme among small businesses. So it's worth for anyone listening, this is worth really paying attention to, things are getting a little bit more competitive, but it's still a great way to get your foot in the door. But before we get to that, why don't we talk a little bit about what your business does, what Kinnami does, because you talked about managing data and there's a lot that goes into that that can mean a lot of different things. Why don't we talk a little bit about how you specifically do that and what you find, what attracted you, what you thought was innovative about the way that Kinnami does it.

[07:13] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah. If you think about traditionally how data is managed, right, especially at the edge, you have devices, right? It could be a personal phone, it could be a computer, it could be other things, right. Sensors, all of that data is collected, sent somewhere to a centralized place in a data center, in a cloud. It's all processed and then pushed back out for use. It's the traditional, I guess, hub and spoke model, where there's a hub that does everything and then pushes things back. Increasingly, the world is getting even more distributed and connected. Right. Which means that this centralized way of doing things doesn't quite work anymore. Think about connected cars, satellites in operation, all of these systems require R1 time processing right. At the edge. It's not sufficient to go back and forth to a centralized point. You need to make decisions quickly at the edge. Secondly, the data volumes at the edge are growing significantly, right? And in fact, it's expected that, but in the next three years, it's going to eclipse all of the centralized data that's been created and processed. Right.

[08:23] Richard C. Howard: Interesting.

[08:24] Sjueesh Krishnan: That's quite a shift, right, sure. Where we've come from and where we're going. And so the challenge is, with all of this data, all of this needs for real time processing, peer to peer communications between edge devices, etc., how do you actually manage all of this? Right? Because we've lived in the centralized environment, so it's great. Right. So there are great solutions from a cloud perspective. All of the hyperscalers, IBM, Google, AWS provide great solutions from a centralized perspective. And then we have some solutions that address security. Right. So you have device security solutions out there protecting your device itself, but from a pure data perspective, nothing exists today. And so generally, organizations are trying to cobble together solutions right, across storage, across security, to try to address that problem, and it's not working. If you read in the press about IoT security, for example, it's a mess, right. Every day you hear about another breach, and part of that is because of this patchwork of solutions. Sure. So at Kinnami, we said we want to try and address this problem, right. And the edge is different for a few reasons, right? One is there's millions and billions of more devices at the edge, so it becomes hard to manage that. How does it effectively manage all of those devices?

[09:41] Richard C. Howard: And so when you say, just so I can understand a little bit better and then maybe clarify for anyone listening. So when you say LOT Internet of things, are you also including things like, well, now all of a sudden, you know, my garage door opener connects to the Internet and the the SCADA system that, you know, manages a building. You know, everything is connected to the internet and, you know, all of the all of the devices, essentially, that we you know, we kind of known for a while. We have to protect our computers and anything that actually has a database in it or your cell phone. But now all of these other My lights might be connected to the Internet. Okay, so that's where you're going with it.

[10:20] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, absolutely. It could be your home refrigerator, your AC system. All of these things now are not just dumb devices, right? They are collecting data. They potentially need to react in real time to things that are happening. They need to send data to multiple places. So it opens up the attack surface quite significantly, right. In terms of where people can go to get access to data. It opens up your own private data to exposure in a lot of ways.

[10:54] Richard C. Howard: Right.

[10:55] Sjueesh Krishnan: And so that's the challenge we have right now. There's millions and billions of these devices all over the place, and it's only growing. Secondly, it doesn't exist at the end. So if there's a problem or if there's an issue of a leak or something, how do you address that, right, without having you not sitting in a data center where there's 15 It people around that can immediately jump and fix that problem, right. So it becomes that distributed set of problems, creates all kinds of challenges. And so at Kinnami, we said we want to try and create a holistic solution to try and address this problem around data and data management at the Edge, when we do that using a platform that we've built, that's essentially a distributed peer to peer data management and security solution. So the way it works is our software goes on all of these Edge devices, right? Whether it's a refrigerator or a satellite or any other kind of sensor or a connected car, we have an agent that's running on the device. So when any information is captured by that device, it automatically goes into our secure system. Within that secure area, a few things happen. That data is first broken up into chunks. So smaller pieces, each of those pieces is then individually encrypted, and then those encrypted pieces can be spread out around a network, right, in multiple places. It's stored in multiple places around a network. So the idea is that from a security perspective now, if somebody breaks into any machine, they're not going to get anything useful because they're going to get a fragment of encrypted information.

[12:39] Richard C. Howard: Okay?

[12:40] Sjueesh Krishnan: And to basically get the whole, you would have to break into every single place that's stored in and also decrypt that information individually, each of those products.

[12:49] Richard C. Howard: That's interesting. So when you say it's stored in a platform, do you really mean it's stored in platforms that are now, if we're talking about the edge, the tactical edge, when we're talking about the DoD or the military, especially if we're talking about flying now, we're talking about not refrigerators and lights and doorbells, but now we're talking about flying aircraft, right? And maybe even with sensors that are on the ground. And satellites, like all the different things.

[13:17] Sjueesh Krishnan: Drones. Drones. Satellites could be tactical, handheld assault kits, right? All those kinds of devices, right? And so by also spreading information across that kind of network, you're creating better security, but you're also creating more resiliency in the system, right, because imagine a drone getting shot down or a satellite being taken down. Doesn't matter because that information is also spread out in other places. So you automatically and inherently create resiliency in the system. So it's similar to why satellite constellation systems exist, right? The whole concept of satellite constellation systems is to create that resiliency. Right. If one satellite goes down, the whole system can still operate. Right. We're mirroring that with data so that you still have that resiliency. Irrespective of whether a system goes down or potentially, say a network goes down or is under attack, you're still able to manage that, the availability of that information.

[14:18] Richard C. Howard: Interesting. So if you're storing pieces of it on all of these different things and the drone goes down right. I'm assuming that you don't lose the pieces of information that are on that drone because they're also being stored somewhere.

[14:33] Sjueesh Krishnan: Else in other places. Exactly. Right. So sedata is not just split and spread around, but it's also stored in multiple each fragment is stored in multiple places, right. So you get redundancy as well.

[14:44] Richard C. Howard: Interesting.

[14:45] Sjueesh Krishnan: The trick around all of this is to do it in the most efficient way possible, because all of these devices we're talking about, right, the drone, the LOT device, are all small devices. So the system needs to be low swap, right? Size, weight, and power, pretty low footprint from that perspective. It also needs to be efficient from a storage perspective because we're creating multiple copies of information and all of that. So that's really where the core of our IP and the innovation comes in, right, is to sort of create that system that is deployable as easily on a drone as it is in a data center.

[15:23] Richard C. Howard: Yeah. No, that's interesting. I have a million questions about this just because I was so involved with it, at least from the flying well, even from the acquisition standpoint, I was working on a lot of those programs when I was in the Air Force because you've also got, like you mentioned, you get massive amounts of data that things are generating. So how do you store massive amounts of data on things that maybe originally we're flying aircraft that are 20, 30, 40 years old in some cases. We used to joke that we had, like, the original Windows operating system on some of the intelligence aircraft that I used to fly. When you have aircraft that aren't designed to store that amount of information, obviously that's going to present another challenge. We're talking about that.

[16:11] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, exactly. And I think those are situations where you need flexibility right, of being able to on a mission or in real time be able to decide and optimize where data is stored. Right. Yeah. Everything is not necessarily optimal at any given point in time, and that decision may change over time. And so part of what our system provides is an automated way to do that. So we have an automated policy engine that's orchestrating everything behind the scenes so that can help you to both decide what storage systems to use, when, how, but also what network paths to use. Right. Because every communications option may not be available and may not be ideal at any given time. Right. So it may be that right now satellite is the best way to communicate data, but in another instance, it may be radio. And you want sort of a data management system that is able to dynamically reroute information based on based on operating conditions versus having an Admin or an operator decide that for you.

[17:15] Richard C. Howard: Yeah, no, absolutely. There are so many different scenarios. Right. I mean, when you're talking, especially some of these combat missions, you have different coalition partners that are flying different aircraft, you have different troops on the ground that have different kinds of equipment. So, I mean, you just really never know. It's really interesting. But again, I don't want to go too far down that trail because I know that there are a lot of people really thinking, hey, this is interesting, but how do you get something that is interesting and it's a new idea and a new concept into the hands of the Air Force or the Marines or the Navy? And I think we gave a little bit of an Easter egg at the beginning here because we already started talking about Afworks and SBIR. So why don't we kind of pivot over to that, right? Because you mentioned that you started, by happenstance, learning about SBIR and Afworks. Why don't you talk a little bit about your initial involvement with that and kind of what your thoughts are there.

[18:19] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, and I'll give you a little bit of a back story on how we got to that as well. So I guess this was so in. We as as I joined the company and we were looking at sort of how we grow the business. Obviously, as a startup, the first step is to go look for a bunch of venture money right, to fund from the company. So in in 2019, late 2019, early 2020, we were actively in discussions with several investors about a fundraiser for our growth activities. And interestingly enough, March 2020 came around and all of those conversations shut down right. With COVID-19. And so as a company, we had to really figure out what our next steps were going to be. As that sort of event unfolded. We looked at opportunities on the commercial market from a pilot perspective and all that, but things were looking pretty tight. And part of the challenge is we're not building a SaaS website to sell something. This is underlying deep technology and requires some significant amount of investment in technology and product to sort of get to market. And so we really needed that investment to move forward. And so when these opportunities dried up on the private funding side, we said we need to look at other kinds of activities. Right. And so that's when we started sort of looking around to sort of see what else might exist. And we ran across Afworks and for us it was an interesting opportunity because we hadn't really considered defense sector in attending some of the Afworks webinars and all of that, it seemed like they had created sort of quite an innovative pathway to get businesses engaged and engaged quickly, at least at the first step.

[20:11] Richard C. Howard: Yes.

[20:12] Sjueesh Krishnan: So we said, why don't we try this out and see what happens? And we were lucky to win a phase One award from Africa, which gave us three months to go out and build those connections right. In the Air Force and we took the same approach that we would take in the commercial market if we were going after new markets. So there's a new market we need to build the relationships and we need to build the connections. So we mine places like LinkedIn. We used other networks or networks, people we knew that could introduce us to folks. And I'd say within the first three months, we probably met over 100 people, right.

[20:54] Richard C. Howard: Oh, really?

[20:55] Sjueesh Krishnan: And I was surprised because just not being familiar with the whole DoD side of things, I expected people not to respond as an external person. But I think just going in saying that I have an African contract and I'm interested in sort of learning about your needs and how solution may fit in, opens lots of doors, right. Pleasantly surprised. And so we, I think over that first three months built a lot of really strong relationships with folks and we ended up in a place where the African process is you work three months. You find a customer, you get the customer to sign a memorandum of understanding and then you apply for a phase two. Right?

[21:39] Richard C. Howard: Right.

[21:41] Sjueesh Krishnan: So we went through that process. We found actually several customers that potentially were interested and then we applied for a phase two and we've been able to sort of work that through the process. So I think we've been we're very grateful that works in the process that they've set out. And we've been successful in the phase one and phase two processes thus far.

[22:06] Richard C. Howard: Okay.

[22:07] Sjueesh Krishnan: Where we're going is to try to figure out the next step. And that's the important question that you asked right now. We're creating some interesting pilots and proof of concepts through the phase two efforts.

[22:20] Richard C. Howard: Right.

[22:20] Sjueesh Krishnan: How do we now transition that into the hands of the war fighter? Right. Somebody at the end and we don't really have the answer yet. We're going through that process now to figure out is it a phase three? Is it some kind of other contracting mechanism that we can use to use to get there?

[22:41] Richard C. Howard: Yeah, it's interesting because I have the exact same conversation so many times with SBI. SBI is such a great way to get your foot in the door, especially with innovative technologies where you might be looking for something like venture capital. Right. And another nice thing that I will point out too, is that when and this is a reason to consider selling to the DoD or to another federal agency is you mentioned that a lot of the venture capital started drying up when COVID kind of hit. And I think that's an extreme example of how the market can fluctuate. Right, but it's also a great example of how your commercial line of revenue can dry up, but the government keeps on spending. Right. I think that some of the sayings healthy about government spending is it just takes a wicked long time for the government to do anything. Right. In a lot of cases that's true, but it's also true in a good way, which means commercial funding, that could dry up in a snap. Right. But the government is still spending and you can't just stop that machine, nor does it want to stop.

[23:53] Sjueesh Krishnan: Right.

[23:53] Richard C. Howard: The government still we still have to run the military, we still have to defend the country. We still have to keep our agencies up and running. So I think what you saw there is a good example of how now we can capitalize on what the government is doing. And a lot of businesses will have two streams of revenue, commercial and government and federal. And that can offset they can offset each other. Maybe a government contract doesn't come through in the timeline that you want it to. Commercial revenue kind of makes up for that or the opposite is true. Something business goes out, someone goes out of business or a deal falls through. But the government contract that you have is steady income coming in that you can count on, which is great.

[24:34] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah. I always tell other startups that I talk to and mentor that if you're building deep tech, the first place you should go look for funding is SBIRS and the DoD. Right. Because I think it gives you the runway and it gives you the sort of that patient capital to test your idea, refine it, get it to a stage where it's interesting from a VC perspective to invest in. Right. And I think if you combine the two it becomes quite powerful actually. Right. To scale your business. Because not only do you have the runway and the capital to build out an early kind of proof of concept that's interesting to external investors, but you also have the credibility of working with the DoD and all of that. That again, sort of drives your story.

[25:26] Richard C. Howard: From a company and you're also not giving ownership of your business away.

[25:32] Sjueesh Krishnan: Absolutely.

[25:33] Richard C. Howard: I think that's a big piece of this that I don't even bring up that often. But the government doesn't own your solution through the civil process. Right. And even if typically when you're selling a technology to the government now, certainly you could develop something for the government that the government is going to own, but that's not what this is. This is the government investing basically in you to see if we can take this potential that you have that you've proven and take it to the next level. Right. So one of the requirements is typically has to be dual use. So there has to be a commercial use and there has to be a federal or government use and your certainly has that really interesting. And your question as well on what do you do after the civil too? Like where do you go next? Right?

[26:21] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah. So that's what we're trying to figure out. I mean interestingly, we have had lots of good opportunities come out of this. Right. So we started with Afworks. A few months after that we heard about this army program called XTECH Search. Hey, that's something we should apply for. So we applied for it. We got selected in the first round there. So we went to Philly and pitched to folks at the army and we didn't make it past the first round. However, after our pitch, this woman came up to us and said she was one of the judges in the room and she said a lot of the people here probably didn't get the value of what you guys do, so you're probably not going to make it past I got it. Right. And this is a really important stuff. Let's keep in touch. Right?

[27:15] Richard C. Howard: Yeah.

[27:17] Sjueesh Krishnan: And since then our teams worked with her. She was from the Army Corps of Engineers.

[27:23] Richard C. Howard: Okay.

[27:24] Sjueesh Krishnan: So our teams worked with her team for about a year and we got a contract with them with the University of Nebraska to look at developing a system to monitor critical infrastructure assets, right. So bridges, assets, things like that. And it's just a function of being there, right. Taking part in the event, meeting this person and building that relationship. Right. And so I think sometimes we look at these things like, oh, we didn't get past XxXor, so it's a waste of time to take part in these things. But it's all about being in the right place at the right time, where you can meet those people that you can cultivate relationships with. So I think even programs like Exec Search, even though we didn't win anything, we actually ended up winning. Right. Because we you're right. We now have a three year contract that we're working on with the Army Corps and the University of Nebraska. But it all came out of that one meeting at X Six Surge.

[28:25] Richard C. Howard: Yeah. No, you're right. It never would have happened if you didn't do that. And I was wondering because I was looking over your federal I'm looking at it right now, some of your federal contract awards. And I saw them, one from Nebraska up there. I was like, what is that? Because that is a little bit different than some of the other and I could see that these are SBIis. It looks like you have a couple of SBI, actually, or at least were they two separate SBIis, or is it a continuation of the initial no, I.

[28:52] Sjueesh Krishnan: Think we have like three separate SBI going on right now. We have one going on with combat search and rescue within the Air Force, sort of helping them sort of more effectively and efficiently, looking at isolated personnel and collect health metrics and all of that. We have another effort going on with AFRL, looking at digital engineering. So this is a slightly different problem. It's how do you move extremely large data sets? We talked about this earlier in the show. So this could betes of files. How do you efficiently and securely move that not just within the Air Force, but to external partners? Right, sure. Whoever are the collaborators could be allied partners, etc. Right. And then I guess this might be interesting to you from your flying days, but we're doing some work with Big Safari and Compass.

[29:41] Richard C. Howard: Oh, sure, yeah.

[29:42] Sjueesh Krishnan: Looking at how to enable multi level security onboard the Compass Calls aircraft.

[29:49] Richard C. Howard: Yeah, I was talking with Stephanie about that, too. So if everyone's listening, you might not realize that we have someone else on also from Kinnami. But we talked a little bit about that, and she was just talking about how you move information around on an aircraft like that. I flew the River Joint and JSTARS, which are which very much fit into the same effect that the River Joint and Big Safari also are very much associated. But yeah, moving data around was a and again, I'm going back ten years when I was in the cockpit. Right. But that was. Always a challenge. Always a challenge. Not just in the cockpit, but I mean, how do you get it from mission planning on a computer and a squadron to inside the aircraft, right? Especially if your aircraft is considered a classified environment. Right. I'm not going to go through every scenario here because yeah.

[30:40] Sjueesh Krishnan: And then also how do you move that data around when your classification levels change on mission right. While you're flying and today you don't have a mechanism, right. So people are yelling across the plane or they're texting each other to pass that mission along. And so we're trying to make that process more efficient.

[30:58] Richard C. Howard: Yeah. Well, that is definitely an area that is ripe for innovation and streamlining. So you are involved in a lot of really kind of cool areas that are in need, too, of solutions. Certainly. I think you have a lot of different opportunities in the future here to just keep moving forward. Yeah.

[31:22] Sjueesh Krishnan: I think we also recognize that we're a small company, so in terms of transitioning to get our technology to the end user, it may not just be Kinnami trying to do that by ourselves. Right. It needs to be some kind of a collaborative effort. So we are actively engaged in trying to build relationships and find the right opportunities with the Primes as well. For example, on the Compass Call effort, we're partnering with BAE okay, awesome. Because they're the prime on Compass Call and some of some of the software systems on board the plane. So we're trying to also figure out that path as well. Is there a win-win there that we might be able to collaborate with the prime that sort of creates a pathway for us to transition our technology to the warfighter as well?

[32:13] Richard C. Howard: No, absolutely. And so for all the Primes listening out there and for other businesses, that's good to know because you're also every business has to think about this, especially the small businesses that have something like this is a lot of times that the bigger contracts are not going to be specifically for what you are selling. It's going to be for a solution that includes maybe even a small part of it is what you have. So that's where teaming and collaborating becomes so important as you're moving forward and seeing how you can and then you can be strategic about who you partner with. Just like you mentioned with BAE and Big Safari. Right. So if you have a target, whether it's a client or weapon system you're trying to get into, pretty easy to do the research and find out who the Primes are involved with that especially being as far down the road as you guys are. At least as far down the road as you're on contract with the government. You have several contracts and obviously you have a lot of interest. There's going to be interest there from the bigs for sure.

[33:14] Sjueesh Krishnan: From our perspective, this is no different than our commercial strategy commercially. We're going to follow the same approach. Right. We're going to try and partner with some of the larger either It vendors or systems integrators as we go out into the commercial market. And so for us, it's the same kind of strategies, maybe a different kind of set of actors, but it's the same approach.

[33:37] Richard C. Howard: Yeah. And something interesting too, is you were talking about, hey, where do you go after the phase two, the phase three, the programs of record? I've had a lot of conversations about, hey, how do you create that program of record? Right. And that's a long process. Right. But there's also a lot of strategies to stay on contract with the government up to the point that that happens backslash when you look at something like you're on the ABMS contract. And we were talking about that. ABMS is a program of record. Right. So it's also for anyone listening. You don't have to go out and try to create this program of record and take on the world, because that is a huge challenge. Right. It can be done, certainly, but there are already a lot of programs of record out there that you probably fall into. Right. So especially when we talk about the new weapon systems like ABMS, as that starts building over the years, it exists and it receives funding. So potentially that could be something that you guys capitalize on, right, or you pick any of the other efforts that are going on right now that already exists as a program. No, absolutely. Lots of interesting paths forward for you. So what's next? What are you focused on now?

[34:52] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, so just one other thing I want to add is, in addition to SBIRs, I think where we've been successful is trying to build some funding pathways through congressional funding. The work that we're doing with the Army Corps in Nebraska is essentially funded through the Armed Services Committee. So we've been able to use our sort of colleagues at the University of Nebraska and the Army Corps to sort of get in front of some of these needs. Right. That sort of Congress and the Armed Services Committee are looking at, in a sense, to be able to create packages that create some funding pathways through those kinds of mechanisms. And I just mentioned that just that in that for companies listening, that might be a pathway as well. Right. So in this vein of collaborative working right. Those are also pathways that are potentially available if you can find both the right engaged customer as well as engaged partners in that process.

[35:55] Richard C. Howard: No, you're right. There's no there's no lack of different methods to get in front of the right government customer. And I mean, I feel like we could do an entire other episode on how you're working with the Amp Services Committee and what that process looks like. We've done a couple of interviews with people that focus just on that. Right. And that in and of itself is an interesting skill set.

[36:18] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah. So it's been an incredible learning process for us. It's, you know, we've only been engaged in, as I mentioned, in the DoD sector since 2020. So it's, you know, just under two years and we've, I think we've, we've learnt a ton, we've made some, some good progress. But you know, to your question about what's next for us, it's really two things, right? The first is some of these SBIRs that we have on phase two, we're really looking at how do we transition this right into a phase three or some other kind of project where we can start to productize that solution as we think about getting it into the hands of the war fighter. So next year that's going to be really our big focus from a perspective, is getting there. Our second big focus next year is going to be sort of pushing from a commercial perspective. We have several opportunities we're working on in the utility sector, in autonomous systems and robotics, in drones, as well as in some other LOT related kinds of areas. And so we're really looking over the course of next year to get sort of one of our commercial product into market and in the hands of some of these users as we think about our commercial rollout as well. So like you mentioned, we see ourselves in a year or two potentially having two pathways, right. There's a marketing team that's focused on the commercial side and then a sales marketing team that's focused on the federal DoD side because we've done a fair amount of engagement on the DoD front. Haven't really looked across other parts of the federal government. And I know there are opportunities with Department of Transportation, sure.

[38:04] Richard C. Howard: As we think about our product FAA, there's so much out there. I've had episodes just with just focusing on little niches of industry that they never thought that the government would buy from what they do, right, from social media training or Tai chi instructors. Stuff that's very nontechnical, where the government is just buying. They buy almost everything. In fact, people have challenged me with different things to see if I could confirm that the government doesn't buy what they sell. And even though some of it's small quantities, I've been able to find just about everything that has come our way. But in your case, there's so much work there, there's so many things both commercially and in the government sector where you could go that it's nice that there are those opportunities. And I think you've got the right it sounds like what you're doing is you're slowly building your way out through the Department of Defense and then once you get bigger, expanding to maybe some of the other agencies, which is smart because the government is a big place and each agency works a little bit differently.

[39:15] Sjueesh Krishnan: I think if we can build credibility in one place, then we can use that to move into other spaces.

[39:24] Richard C. Howard: Some of the things you're talking about, and it came up on the last show, like, for instance, the approval to operate. Right. So you go through this process with the Air Force and maybe the army, right. And you start getting some of those cyber-security certifications or approval to operate. If you have an ATO to work on a weapon system that the Air Force owns, that gives you an enormous amount of credibility to be able to start going to the other agencies. And then you start talking about FedRAMP. There's all these steps that you can take as you're going through the process.

[39:55] Sjueesh Krishnan: Absolutely. And I think probably sometime in the next year we're going to have to do some sort of NSA clearance activity as well. And so, again, those are the kinds of things, as you said, will add to credibility as we look into other spaces here as well.

[40:10] Richard C. Howard: Yeah, no, it's really exciting step by step. The only thing just kind of to recap, because we've talked a lot about what Kinnami does, what you attracted it to you, how you guys got into the Air Force SBIR program, what you have coming up next. You're talking about, hey, what phase three for next year? Getting involved in the commercial space. And I just I like to point this out too, on some of these episodes. We're talking SBIR that just being the graduate of a phase two SBIR gives you an enormous advantage when you're trying to sell to the government because they can use that criteria that you graduated from phase two SBIR, to give you a sole source contract, which essentially could be your phase three. Right. I've met a lot of companies that either weren't aware of that or didn't quite know how to approach the government with that. And there are a lot of contracting officers and program managers out there that aren't familiar with this process.

[41:14] Sjueesh Krishnan: Right.

[41:15] Richard C. Howard: So, I mean, you could be in acquisitions for 20 years and never touch a SBIR. I know you guys are aware of this, but I would tell companies that are listening that are maybe in phase two is I would have something written out taking the Far federal acquisitions regulations and the SBIR language that you could just hand a contracting officer during a meeting if you're kind of investigating who your phase three or next contract partner could be. Because I always close with hey, and the technology is great, it solves your problem and you can get to us this way. And by the way, we can get a sole source contractor. This can make it easier for you if it's something you consider by going through this process. And a lot of them know what it is, but some of them don't. So it's always good to let them know that there's an easy way to put you on contract. The sky is the limit for what you guys could do from here.

[42:06] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, absolutely. We're quite excited with the opportunity, and I think this process has also opened up to lots of interesting partners right, in the ecosystem that are doing really cool things as well hardware, software, etc. And so we're also excited by the opportunity to just collaborate. As I mentioned earlier, we don't see ourselves as a single player in the ecosystem. It's a joint effort to make better technology for our war fighters. It's a joint effort to make our nation more secure. And so I think we're always open to that idea of being able to collaborate with the right sets of folks as we push sort of our joint sort of mission forward here.

[42:48] Richard C. Howard: Sure, yeah. No, defense contracting is a really interesting place to be playing in the mission and being able to just knowing that what you're doing not only is building a business and that's profitable, but you're also keeping the war fighter safe, helping defend the country, improving national security, so many good things about it. And part of the podcast mission here is to kind of dispel the myths out there about what selling to the military means, what it means to be a defense contractor. And that's why I love having people like you on, so you can come on and tell your story and tell how the government's actually helping you guys build your business, and now you're helping us. So we're coming to an end here, Sjueesh. But I do want to give you the opportunity, if someone wants to reach out to you, what's the best way to contact you if they are interested in possibly working together or maybe have an idea for opportunity down the line?

[43:40] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah. So I'll give you a couple of ways. My email is just my first name, last [email protected], so it's Sjueeshkrishnan@kinnami K-I-N-N-A-M-I. So that's the direct way if you want to get a hold of me. Otherwise, www.kinnami.com. You can also reach out to us through there as well.

[44:13] Richard C. Howard: Perfect. All right, well, I will put that in the show notes. And do you have any last words of advice if there's a small business out there listening to this, that maybe they do have an innovative technology or a product or solution and they're thinking about trying to sell to the DoD or the military and they're not sure, what would you recommend to them as some initial steps?

[44:34] Sjueesh Krishnan: Yeah, I would suggest one, don't be scared off by the process. Right. I mean, I think you hear a lot in the press about the value of debt and how it's so complicated to work with the DoD, but when you're in your early stage, what you need are those proof points, and I think DoD will give you those irrespective whatever else happens after. And so go for it. I would say think about it. Just like any other sales process, right? You have to put in the effort. You have to build the relationships. You have to take the time. I often hear complaints from people, hey, the Africa process is not working because they haven't introduced me to all of these people. And my reaction to that is that's not African job. They're paying you $50,000 to go out and do that work, right? And in the commercial market, nobody's going to pay you for that. You got to go figure that out yourself, right? Put in the effort, put in the time, meet people, attend events. There's all kinds of resources that the DoD provides, right? From conferences, webinars, there's no dearth of it. I think if anything, it's just a question of how much time you'll have to focus on that. I'd say leverage all of those things for anybody listening. Afworks start with Africa. It's a great place. I can't say enough good things about the group and the organization and what they've done, but I think more recently the Navy, the army, they've all come up with similar programs and so all of these groups are trying to bring in more small businesses and so there's probably lots of different pathways for you to engage. And if anybody wants to chat about this or want some guidance, you have my contact details reach out to me.

[46:13] Richard C. Howard: Awesome. Well said. Sjueesh I would add a DIU to that list of places people are looking at. Other great place works very similar to that. It's been a fantastic conversation. I know people are going to get a lot of value from this. I know I learned a lot and I really enjoyed talking with you about some of this and I feel like we could have a follow on here just to talk about what you're doing in the ISR world and some of these aircraft that are out there. You can check out the show notes if you want to contact Sjueesh and Kinnami. And if you want to learn more about defense contracting, you can go to DoD contract.com, check out some of our training there and we have some great guests coming up. We have an awesome conversation with Kinnami today. So we will see you next time. Now, if you've ever wondered how you can find out about the opportunities that don't come through Sam.gov, opportunities that are already set aside for GSA, for some of the big contract vehicles, then today is the episode for you because that's one of the things Mike is trying to solve with Govli. They have a very unique solution which I haven't seen before. So he's walking me through what that is, how that can help small businesses. And I think you're really going to like today's episode. Now if you want to learn more, you go to Dodcontract.com. Our open enrollment is going to be coming up soon, so you're going to be able to enroll in the DoD Contract Academy. We also have a new special offering. So I've been kind of teasing this out. Here where we're going to work with a few companies, one on one, to ensure that you are successful selling to the government. Now, this is a much more in depth opportunity. Typically, we're not offering, so be on the lookout for that. Go to Dodcontract.com when you get a chance.

If you enjoyed this episode, you can also check out Is SBIR Replacing Venture Capital? The Story of HTX Labs where Scott Schneider, CEO and co-founder of HTX Labs discussed how he views the Federal SBIR program as venture capital and how he has taken HTX into the DoD to help train our warfighters.